So, I spent last weekend up in London, alternating my time between the shittiest hotel room I've ever stayed in (notwithstanding the company: NewTom and his housemate Nikky), and the Landmark Forum. I find it difficult to write about this: it's impossible to explain, particularly without sounding like a lunatic.

I'd heard about LF through Ken and Rach, both of whom had done it, and remember feeling intrigued: they'd both gotten a lot out of it, and I respect their judgement. So a few months back I went up to London for an introductory evening, which didn't make up my mind about it one way or another. Some of the ideas I heard about there were really interesting (and resonated with ideas I'd heard elsewhere and liked), whilst the hard-sell approach they seemed to take really put me off. So I waited for a few months, mentioned it to NewTom who expressed an interest, and we eventually got around to signing up.

Practically, the event was 3 days of lectures and talks, running from 9am until 10pm with breaks every few hours and a long supper break in the evening. I didn't see or feel any of the pressure I'd read about to not take toilet breaks, and whilst the days were long and I ended the weekend quite tired, I didn't feel it went as far as the "sleep deprivation" which is sometimes ascribed to it.

The speakers were mixed: one American guy, Scott, who I found very charismatic, entertaining and thought-provoking; the other, Will, (who was, to be fair, still going through his training plus chock full of British reserve), seemed less at ease speaking publicly.

As for the content: there was lots of it, and it was pretty full-on. The language used was quite specific, with terms from English (racket, possibility, distinction) redefined; much of the course seemed to be about defining a common language for us to use in discussing difficult-to-discuss concepts. There were parts that I didn't get at all, parts I can't remember, parts that seemed to be very commercially driven, and many that I really enjoyed. I think I'm best off trying to record themes I took away from the course, using normal (as opposed to LF) English:

• Our past experiences shape what we do now, and that as such we often make decisions which can't be considered completely free from bias; to free ourselves from the resulting patterns of behaviour we need to sort out these experiences;
• There's what happens, and there's how we view it - and the two are very different. By distinguishing the two it's possible to recognise that our views of events are very subjective, and therefore deal with them more effectively;
• Taking complete responsibility for our own lives and those of our loved ones is important, and is the first step towards taking responsibility on a larger scale. (This sounds very similar to one of the ultimate aims of Aikido, where the loftiest notion is to protect the life of someone even when they're trying to kill you).
• Sorting out relationships with families and friends is the first step towards making any difference in the wider world. We were encouraged to phone people with whom we experienced problems in relationships and sort them out during some of the breaks. I can't imagine how this stuff worked before the advent of the mobile phone :)
• Little things, like turning up on time, are important: it's all in the basics. This seemed, to me, to map to the importance of reigi ("manner and attitude") in the martial arts: attention to the seemingly small details is the foundation for taking care of larger concerns.
• We can't ever change ourselves, and life is empty and meaningless, leaving possibilities wide open and making it vital that we live in the hear and now. This sounded similar in some ways to what I've been told about Zen.

I'm sure I've missed out and misinterpreted some important points, and I can't explain how all this hangs together, but I have a sense in retrospect that it's coherent. In fact I suspect that, like Zen, it's not something that can be understood intellectually - not that I could claim to understand Zen, you understand. Oh, and there were lots of references to Gandhi and Martin Luther King, which played well with me. NewTom noticed lots of similarities to what Peter Ralston talks about in his books and courses (which, not having done more than skim his work, I didn't get).

Tonight was the final night of the course, a great climax to it all with Scott really exhorting everyone to live as fully as possible, which I thought was absolutely wonderful... until the hard sell comes in again and we're put under what I felt was extreme pressure to register for the advanced course. I got really angry at this point, but maybe I just don't like being told what to do. Actually that maybe is definitely not a maybe :) I recall a point earlier in the weekend when Scott asked all the attendees in the room who were running their own business to consider that they might have started doing that to avoid getting told what to do by others. Heh :)

Overall: I got a lot out of the course (echoing the experience of others), and I intend to go on to do some additional seminars. As a direct result of it, I think (or hope) I've reactivated two relationships (with my sister and my ex-girlfriend) which were previously dead in the water: or at least, I've had unexpectedly positive telephone conversations with both of these folks which lead me to think this is the case, only time will tell. This alone makes it worthwhile IMHO.

On top of that, I've felt great ever since the course (in much the same way that I remember feeling great after doing meditation a couple of years back), and have a lot of time for the essential philosophies that I got there. I just wish that I wasn't so uncomfortable about the hard sell...

Comments

[lgattruth]

"I just wish that I wasn't so uncomfortable about the hard sell..." +

Trust your instincts about this part of the company's controversial tactics. There is a good amount of information on the internet about this for-profit company's controversial past and methods. They are a direct descendant of the Est Training of Werner Erhard and Werner Erhard and Associates. Recently, there was a video in France that came out in 2004, one month later, Landmark pulled out of all of France. Just GOOGLE, "Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus", for more information. Also, try putting "Landmark Education" into Google, and read through some of the research from the sites NOT sponsored directly by the company itself. Some of these include the Rick Ross Site, Apologetics Index, Skepdic, and the "Landmark Education Litigation Archive".

I would highly encourage you to read everything available on the internet and in published sources about this company's controversial past and methods, before plunging into more coursework due to a "hard sell".

Our blog also has more information on the methods of other similar Large Group Awareness Training organizations:
http://lgattruth.blogspot.com

[Tom Hume]

The first thing I did hen I heard about LM was to spend some time looking online - where I found a mixed bag of stuff - nothing conclusive, and (as is often the case with online opinions) equally extreme in each direction.

It's actually not dissimilar to the martial arts/aikido community online... enclaves of enthusiasts and detractors, sprinkled liberally with flame wars between them...

[Dominic Mitchell]

Like lgattruth, I'd be wary of the hard sell. I've known two other people to go through the landmark forum. One is an acquaintance of my brother-in-law. He was a little odd, but it didn't seem to have done much permanent damage (although my brother-in-law said that it didn't improve him much). The other is a close friend of mine who is now a lot less close. She is now in debt, and continues to borrow more money to attend more landmark courses. She talks about landmark at great length, and attributes everything positive that happens to landmark, even if I've been saying that independently.

In short, she's become quite addicted and a lot less of a nice person since starting. her behaviour seems quite "cultish".

I doubt very much that you would fall into the same category. But I would think long and hard when they ask you to go back. Ask yourself whether you need what they are offering still, or whether you just feel you should do it.

[lgattruth]

Regardless of what your first impression or "already always listening" is telling you about what you think of the critical information out there on Landmark Education, or any other Large Group Awareness Training organization for that matter - I would highly encourage you to fully read through the resources that I have outlined above.

And I would encourage you to reserve your opinion and your checkbook until you have read not just the "flame wars", but also the various publications over the years that are mostly available on the internet. The "hard sell" is just the beginning...

[Tom Hume]

Cheers Dominic. I certainly am thinking about this - this blog post is part of that. On the one hand, thus far I feel I've gotten some real value out of the weekend. On the other... there are aspects I'm not comfortable with.

I was thinking about this last night in terms of religion, and actually it's a common trait: the teachings of Jesus, for instance, seem to make a lot of sense to me. But the Christian church is not, in general, something I'm comfortable with.

Lgatruth: I've read the Rick Ross site, Skedpic and others (in fact I read them before first going along). I've also read the Observer article I linked to, which pretty well echoed my own experience. Can you point me at some of the other publications you mention? And do you have any other things I should read for a balanced view?

[lgattruth]

Well, the video "Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus" is certainly revealing, there is more information about this on Google. Also http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/landmark/ shows just a recent example of Landmark's attempts to misuse the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to attempt to suppress Freedom of Speech on the internet. There are also loads of good articles to read: http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html "The est of Friends", from July 9-15, 1998 issue, Metro. http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark193.html Introduction to the Landmark Education litigation archive, which discusses their litigious intimidatory nature, http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark216.html Stress fear in $700 child forum, The Sunday Times, Australia/June 11, 2006, discusses "a complete and utter waste of money". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001790.html Reuters carried by The Washington Post, states "Landmark, which was founded in 1991, is a descendant of the 1970s motivational guru Werner Erhard's EST training seminars.", and "a panel discussion on whether or not the organization is a "cult." "

All I'm saying is, there is a lot more research out there to be read through, in order to consider yourself a fully informed consumer. The "Landmark Education Litigation Archive" is particularly interesting. The publications above are reputable news sources, and not "enthusiasts and detractors", though there are many enthusiasts and detractors as well. If you want reputable news reports, or original legal documents, there is truly a wealth of information to pour through. Good luck.

[Wes]

Hey man - don't do it. My brother is in with these yahoos for almost five grand now. He's become a flaming asshole because of these "teachings". Do yourself a favor - save about $4990 and buy a volume of Arthur Schopenhauer's writings. You'll get more out of it and you'll be able to come to your own conclusions - not someone else's repacked expensive garbage.

[Tom Hume]

Wes - cheers for the comment. I'll check out some of Schopenhauer's stuff - do you have any particular one you'd recommend?

[Neale]

I must admit that I find it interesting reading some familiar negative views. Over the years since I did the Landmark Forum (in April 2000), I've met people who have done previous versions, and have done it since.

What has been consistent about it has been two things:
- That the courses keep improving, and the marketing approach is much improved. I do notice one thing about "pressure". I was putting "pressure" on a friend the other day. I was asking her why she keeps bashing her head against a brick wall in a job she hates. The "pressure" was that I kept coming back to the question when she did that natural thing of digressing and avoiding it. Why? Because she's human, and it's often easier to avoid your problems than to face them head on.
The great thing about the introductions to the Landmark Forum now (since around 4 years ago) is that they have been totally redesigned to feature a "taster" of what the course is like and the results, and that's followed by an optional second half (people are told "We'll now have a break. At this point, the evening will be complete for some of you, in which case thank you for your time and attention". For everyone else, they get to come back after the break if they are seriously interested.
- The second thing is that, irrespective of when people did the course (or which version), they say that it was worth the money. That in some cases tehy did a few more courses.

For me personally, I've done several courses, and really enjoyed them and got great value out of them for me and for my business. There are no other training courses that I've found that deliver the same results for as little money, and not with the lasting results. Certainly, my one experience with Anthony Robbins organisation, which charges far more for true LGA events (many hundreds or thousands of people where the trainer cannot even see peoples faces), was one of an organisation completely lacking any integrity. A promised refund for the part of the course I missed because they gave the wrong dates never materialised despite much chasing.

In contrast my next door neighbour registered for the Landmark Forum, and after 2 days, the course leader suggested that he go and speak to his doctor, as he was dealing with issues that needed professional counselling. He was given a full refund.

I must admit. Given my experience and the amazing professionalism of a course run on a tight budget, I'm always a little disappointed that so many people go around "knowing" how evil the course is, when it's not. It's just bloody great and makes an amazing difference! The material should be made part of a school education. We'd have a lot less problems in the world if it was.

[Tanveer]

I am surprised about those sites with negative reviews about Landmark forum. I did the Landmark Forum last year and thankfully I did not read those negative reviews, otherwise I would have never done it. I only read those reviews after I have done it, and most of what was said, I did not experience that.
One site wrote- People complain about not being allowed a toilet break!!!!! Well, I could go to relieve myself anytime i wanted. We were asked to be responsible, so that we dont go to toilet break when we see others rushing out. but wait till some of them return. that is a sensible thing to do. We were told similar things when we attended business seminers and all. That's how discipline is maintained in a workshop.
Yes, there is a bit of hard sell. but then when I was so excited on tuesday with what I got for the forum, I was insisting my friend (who was my guest) and he registered. Later I felt I was trying to hard sell him and asked him if i sounded that way. He only replied I was not usually that forceful but that never came across as being hard sell, but it showed by enthusism.
Though I did encounter conversations where I was encouraged to take the course, I wont say that as a 'hard sell'. Afterall, it my choice and why blame others if I can make a decision myself. Secondly, I dont think anyone should lose the opportunity of experiencing being in the landmark forum and getting something out of it, just because they think they are being hard sold something.
Anthony Robbins programme charge much more and there is much more hard selling there. Go to any programme by Zig Ziglar, Anthony Robbins and them compare their hard selling to Landmark's. I have been to Tnoy Robbins introduction and the hard selling was way too much.

I am not saying it is the best thing in the world, but I have never been to any workshop that gives u as much value as Landmark forum. There r few things I may not like about it, but this is nothing compared to the things I liked about it and the things I got from it.
Show me if u guys know any other programme that can beat Landmark forum (provided you have done the landmark forum too- as most negative reviews are form people who have not done it). Not that I am challenging you, but I wanna know about other programmes too that is as worthwhile as the Landmark Forum, so that I can do that programme too.
My advise it 'Do the programme then make judge for yourself'. Afterall u got nothing to lose except £315, but who knows u might getting something very valuable.

[David Louis Puttick]

I am not at all surprised by all of the negativity surrounding Landmark. You have to learn to live with a level of scepticism and just ask yourself whether it made a difference to your life.

I did a course about 10 years ago - in fact I went on to do both the Forum in Action follow up and also the Advanced Forum.

They were both life changing events for me and I'm really not the type of person to use the phrase 'life changing event' very often if at all. But hey they were, so I can't avoid it;-)

The Advanced Forum was less of a kick but far more profound and far reaching in it's consequences.

For me that was enough. I'm not a follower and I'm not a course junkie. Some people never seemed to escape the various follow ups available and all power to them. I just didn't see the need.

To some extent Landmark do bring some of their problems on themselves. The hard sell techniques that they employed at the time were just bound to cause cynicism in a country like the UK.

But they still put on life changing events, and for that they should be praised.

[Chris Miller]

I have just undertaken the Landmark Forum in London, and the best way I can describe it fr myself is 'I am Chris again'

I had issues with family, friends and other trivial 'stuff', but since completing the Landmark Forum I can honestly say I am excited by life.

If you have the opportunity to undertake this then take, if you do not have the opportunity, then make the opportunity.

[jay]

tom,

thanks for your post re: landmark, i believe they're spot on, and your take on the coersion is fair. obviously, there is no shortage of opinion about landmark on the web, a great deal of it skeptical. i attended the forum, the advanced forum and a handful of the seminars.

the bottom line is, i got a great deal from my involvement and realized major improvements in many areas of my life, my relationships and, most importantly, within myself. it's hard to describe, but i now feel a great deal more comfortable in my own skin. it's like i have developed a different sensibility, stepped outside of myself and developed another (possibly more detatched/unbiased) view/perspective on things. it's very difficult to get me 'wound up' about anything; my 'bullshit detector' has gotten much better (including/especially on myself).

i no longer participate in landmark. towards the end of my involvement (2-3 years), i just got the feeling that many involved were involved simply only in landmark activities and i wanted to do other stuff. that shouldn't color my views of the benefits i recieved, however, i was just ready to move on.

i would definitely recommend the forum to just about anyone who cared to explore self-improvement.

thanks again,

jay

[XXX REDACTED XXX]

Dear Tom

I was interested to read your thoughts on LF and wanted to get in touch regarding a current project.

I am a documentary and film maker based in London. I have worked for the past 10 years as a freelancer making doucmentaries and dramas for the BBC, Channel 4, More4 and also The History Channel, FX, HBO. Similar dramas you may have seen in which I and the company (XXX REDACTED XXX) have been involved incude XXX REDACTED XXX: all of which have won BAFTAs.

I am currently researching a drama for Channel 4 about self help and personal development, and I am looking in particular at The Landmark Forum. The idea is not to make a critique of it, but to look at lots of people's experiences and to put foward a considered film about the way in which people can gain different things from the same experience.

My aim is to speak to as many people as I can who have been to The Landmark Forum seminars. I want to hear from people who have had both positive and negative experiences. Any interview is unattributable and totally off the record.

If you would consider meeting or speaking to me, please do get in touch. I can explain much more about myself, the company and the project if you do.
XXX REDACTED XXX

Many thanks.
XXX REDACTED XXX

[mmel001]

Hey Tom

Just reading through this as I am now investigating this forum. My friend called me up earlier today to try and get me to go to her graduation tomorrow night, buzzing about it. She doesn't normally do that and I am intrigued...

Does this encorporate NLP type techniques?

Thanks

Mel

[LMF Grad]

I have done the LMF & some of the other courses, as training goes its cheap as chips, I have been on excel and powerpoint training that cost more than the entire curriculum.

I didn't really have a problem with the selling because I had been fore warned about it. I also read all the negative stuff along with the postiive and still trusted the judgement of my close friends who had got a lot from it. At the end of the day we're all adults and we can choose to go with something or not regardless of sales techniques. I too get a little agitated that so many people bag it, because I have seen so many people benefit and grow as a result of doing it, myself included.

We need stuff like this in our world. Just walk around London and see how many angry, uptight and stressed people their are. See how we're actively destroying the very enrvioment we're dependant on and all other life on it, to the point that we're likely to destroy ourselves within the next 50 years unless there is a drastic transformation in the way we behave collectively. Amoung many other problems. The collective human race are a destructive bunch of people with alot of anger and miss trust. At least LMF is attempting to do something positive, and I'd welcome anything that attempted to make a difference.

Do some people not get on with it and have a bad experience? Yes, of course. But, I have worked for many different companies over the years of varying levels of professionalism. And I have yet to work anywhere that does not have a percentage of people unhappy about something, service, product, etc. You could find negative stories about any company if you looked hard enough, that does not make it evil and nor does having an aggressive marketing strategy. If you want to see hardsell go to an NLP seminar, using embedded comands and making full use of Calialdini's infuence techniques, then you'll really know what hard sell is, and the courses aren't a few hundred quid, they're thousands.

If you put this in context, its always easier to up-sell an exsisting customer than it is to get a new one. If you buy a car from Ford, you wouldn't be surprised if they try and sell you another one. It isn't really that outrageous to try and sell your products and services. It just seems that because its about peoples psychology that it sits very uncomfortably for a lot of people.

If I had a complaint about LMF it would be that they almost try to come off like they're a charity sometimes and getting a bit coy if you ask them about their commercialism in relation to their aim to bring about world peace whilst making a profit. The fact is I don't have a problem with that, I run a business myself so I am not against people trading value for money. I think they'd do themselves a big favour if they were just a bit more open about it and transparent. They can be a bit secretive, probably because they get so much criticism, but this in many ways works against them because it feels a little bit incongruent to their ultimate aims of the LMF. Although again, I don't think this makes them evil in anyway.

I would also advice any graduates to be very careful about their laungage, one of the things that freaks people out is when you come bouncing out full of beans and using the 'training laungage'. I.e all the stuff about rackets and stories etc are designed to simplify complex subjects within the walls of the LMF and with other graduates. That is part of the cleverness of the system it has kind of branded some major distinctions into easy to remember names to make it easier to learn and use. But its not suppose to be taken out into the world and discussed with people. They do say this, very few people listen.

And another trap is to try and fix other people, this is also something that I heard stressed many times by the trianers NOT to do, yet people do it. They start analysing everybody and trying to fix their problems, which is simply not their responsbility.

I genuinely think that if everybody had this level of awareness we'd all get along better.

[Catherine]

Hi Tom,

I did the Landmark Forum in April 2008, after my boss sent me and some work colleagues along. She got a lot out of her Landmark experience, and wanted to share that with us. Not everyone from work accepted her offer to go, but I decided to keep an open mind and see what it had to offer.

I found it to be a very mixed experience. There were a lot of things that Landmark can offer that are very useful - things about communication, about listening to others, about letting go of the past, and about forgiveness are great techniques for people to move beyond traumatic experiences. There were so many people in my group who underwent huge transformations right in front of our eyes, and that was rather inspiring to witness.

However, this was tempered by other, distasteful aspects to Landmark. I did not like being talked down to. I did not like being told that my life is "not working for me" (yes, my leader used those exact words) and that I had to follow everything that Landmark had to say in order to correct the direction that I was heading in. I did not like being told that the reason I couldn't accept everything that the leader had to say was because I was running a racket.

The most offensive part of the Forum occurred on Sunday morning, when our leader made everyone identify three personal traits about themselves (ie smart, polite, friendly), and then told us that we only behaved this way to compensate for three separate traumatic experience in our childhood - one around the age of 5, one around 10, and one in our teens. What rubbish - as if everyone's lives are so easily quantifiable that they fall neatly into these timeframes. But more than this, I was insulted to be told that I'm only "nice" to people to make up for some imagined trauma I underwent in the past. In addition, we were told that any achievement we have in life leaves us with an empty feeling that doesn't last. How can one person come up with a formula that fits every single human being in the world? I find it amazing that people can believe this.

The racket theory works perfectly for Landmark - anyone who disagrees with any aspect of their "technology" is accused of running a racket because they cannot accept the truth. No one is allowed to have any kind of disagreement with Landmark, because the only counter-argument that the leaders have is that you are running a racket for yourself. You are not enrolling yourself in the possibility of a transformation (or whatever their terminology is) out of stubborn, perverse denial, rather than because you just don't agree with what they are trying to sell you.

And it is a hard sell. As other commenters here have said, this is one of the more distasteful elements of the Forum. The leaders take every opportunity to tell you that you must go on to the advanced course to build on what they tell you at the Forum. The leader at my course asked people to stand up when they decided to sign up to the next course - talk about pressuring the rest of us! At the graduation, I was buttonholed by a volunteer who had completed the advanced course who insisted that I had to sign up. Wanting to be nice (obviously to compensate for this childhood trauma), I told her while I could see some people got a lot from Landmark, it wasn't for me. She told me that I had was in denial about my life, and the advanced course would help me improve things. Insulted, I told her that she had no idea about my life and that I was perfectly happy with it. She accused me of running a racket, so I walked away from her.

Out of the four people from my office who attended Landmark, I was the only person who lasted the whole seminar, including the graduation night. Our boss was very disappointed that no one came running back to work extolling the virtues of Landmark. I told her that it was inappropriate for her to send us to a seminar such as this, especially as it was paid for by our professional development funding.

Because of the amazing breakthroughs that we witnessed, I cannot dismiss Landmark completely. But other techniques they have are manipulative, as well as potentially destructive.

[Julian]

Tom

Thank you for maintaining this site - it presents as a very useful archive of Landmark stuff. I have completed the Forum in 2005, the advanced course in 2008 and am on a set of seminars at the moment. What is interesting is the range of reaction - because I have seen many of these myself. I returned after the Forum and tried to persuade co-workers and staff to do it. Even getting the company to pay for the course. (That was Catherine's boss' mistake) as I have learned to my experience.

If you pay for yourself you have a real desire to do the course and so listen in an open way becuase you have a problem to fix. The action of paying for the course starts the process off. When someone else pays the attendee is attending for a different reason and that may, or may not work.

That being said my experience with attendees of the course is fairly similar. People got stuff from the course which has positively improved the perception of their own lives. And they hate the pressure of the sales pitch - but that is part of the process.

So on balance I recommend that everyone that is unsatisifed in some way about some part of their life should do the course because they want to and not because someone else wants them too and under these circumstances you can pretty much guarantee they will benefit.

Thanks

[cassie]

Just wanted to add my experience of Landmark and invite anyone that may be able to offer me some helpful words.....? (preferably not Landmark employees)

My partner is currently 'involved' with Landmark and i am extremely worried about him. He has attended the forum and seminars and is currently taking part in the assisting programme. He changed quite alot after the first forum, not all negative, he was very relaxed and seemed happier but it felt like a part of him was gone and it was replaced by someone harping on about how life is just a story etc and that nothing matters.
I was immediately worried about him after the first phone call he made to me from the forum, and i began to wonder what sort of organisation this was, and this was before i had even looked on the internet and knew anything about landmark - once i read all the reviews i was horrified.

He is now assisting during the week, going to seminars, and assisting on some weekend courses - each time he does the weekend courses he has to stay in London. Since Landmark has become part of his life we have hardly seen each other and i have accepted this as he says it is making him happy and that is what i want for him. I have recently found out i am pregnant and spoke to him about assisting on the weekend forums and suggested that he would probably stop doing them soon as i would need him around. He become defensive and said that i was trying to 'control' him and told me that the forum makes him happy and he will continue to do it and that it is 'his life' - i saw someone then that i didnt know, something in his eyes and the way he spoke to me, NOT the person i know and love - he would of never said something like that to me before, he has always been so thoughtful and would never have wanted to upset me. In my opinon HE is the one being controlled.... by Landmark.

He is an emotionally vunerable person and i am petrified that he has been sucked in by these people - he is always searching for answers about his life and why he acts the way he does and it feels like these people are 'feeding' him with their speil and he is addicted to what they tell him. We dont have alot of money and he has already told me he will be doing all the Landmark courses including the 'leadership' one. Apart from being petrified i also feel so sad and angry that, if indeed i am correct in thinking this, they are 'using' this lovely, vunerable and accepting person to rake in the money and the free labour, he insists that it is isnt the case but i just dont know.

[Jeannie]

Hi Tom,
yours is the first site I have found that seems truly unbiased, in the sense that people are just reporting their experiences, positive or negative. I will be attending the first course in two weeks. A friend of mine has been trying to get me to go for years. I decided this time to keep an open mind, and that I'd go knowing that it helps some people, and others not so much.

My husband is afraid for my mental health, as I have struggled with depression for many years, and it being winter - and dark - I am in one of those down times. I find it extremely helpful to be prepared for the hard sell. This is just one thing I'm trying - one weekend - to see if it helps. My only reservation is the possibility of being treated like s***. I don't need to be abused, or watch others being abused, when I'm looking for support, exploration, a truthful look at myself, and acceptance. I don't agree that life is meaningless. If it were, I would have "left" a long time ago.

I am wary of the manipulation, especially in an emotionally charged situation where people are in a room for hours on end, and possibly sleep deprived. That's one part that smacks of Cult. I'm wary of the hard sell. And if someone doesn't let me go to the bathroom, I'll be out of there.

But I'm willing to see what it has to offer.

[Tom Hume]

Jeannie: I think that LM themselves recommend you not do the course if you have any mental health issues. I didn't see anything involving keeping people in a room or away from toilets when I was there.

Interesting though. It's been a couple of years since I went up there; I've had no contact with LM since then, and can't claim to feel strongly for or against it. I've seen a friend have a fairly rough time with it - and come out the other side - since then, and others carry their involvement onwards whilst remaining lovely, happy people.

[akv]

why pressure somebody that LF is always right?
Is not it a racket on their part themselves?
assuming that we are wrong and the lf volunteers are right.
u see life is very cruel and u have to struggle as long as u live. be it a mental or physical struggle.
we need to be adaptive and not transformed as the forum tries to do.
u cant change something. it will break in the process.
one of the leaders guaranteed to return my money if i do not feel satisfied. why not the other way around?????
they are in the business of making money honey.
not intent of helping others. just teachings taken from here, taken from there mingled in some gravy of thought manipulation.
i dont say the stuff is wrong or right.
but every coin has two sides and it can not be denied in this case also.
the true success of the forum will only be when its trainees not only make life good for themselves but also for their loved ones, not like the case with Julian above.
and let others feel the difference in u as LF grad. let them decide whether the changes are acceptable or disastorous.for gods sake dont be a salesman..

.

[akv]

sorry my reference is to cassie and not julian

[anil barnes]

Hi Tom
I have read previous postings on the subject of Landmark's hard sell and I would suggest people are uncomfortable with it because they feel pressured to make a decision, and they struggle with the reasons surrounding that decision. After doing the Landmark forum I did feel like pressure to sign up for the advanced course was extreme. But on the advanced course I learnt the difference between decision and choice. Having understood that, I no longer feel pressured by anyone's hard sell. In my daily work, if someone's trying to sell me something, I no longer feel I need to give reasons for saying no. Given the option of X or Y, I can choose either simply because that's my choice.

[sjc]

why should you be worried about not liking the hard sell? i went to the intro seminar and hated that aspect as well, although the rest was interesting.